Impastatrice: Tempo di impastamento (numero di battute)

[Pere153]

Ciao;


Disciplinare:

"Procedimento: In un’impastatrice a forcella versate 3/4 dell’acqua complessiva dove scioglierete il lievito. Avviate l’impastatrice a bassa velocità per dar modo al lievito di attivarsi, versate il 10%

della farina a disposizione in modo da formare una pastella e continuate a lavorare per 10 minuti. Nei restanti 250 ml d’acqua sciogliete il sale, nel frattempo, passati 10 minuti, cominciate ad

aggiungere il resto della farina a pioggia e molto lentamente, in modo da permettere alla farina di assorbire con tranquillità l’acqua. Quando l’impasto avrà lavorato per i primi 15 minuti, aggiungete

l’acqua ed il sale, in questo modo reidraterete l’impasto che verrà in seguito asciugato dalla farina restante. A questo punto, una volta aggiunti tutti gli ingredienti, lasciate lavorare l’impasto a velocità

bassa per circa 20 minuti. Al termine, otterrete l’impasto che dovrà risultare morbido, elastico e non appiccicoso."


Secondo il Diciplinare l'impasto Napoletano va lavorato almeno 35-40 minuti (15-20 finchè si sono amalgamati tutti gli ingredienti e poi altri 20 minuti)

- Quanto tempo fate girare la vostra impastatrice per ottenere il vostro punto di pasta?
- Finite l'impasto sul banco con le pieghe, se sì, quante serie fate?
- Invece di fare le pieghe, spengendo l'impastatrice, lasciando riposare l'impasto 15 minuti e poi facendo fare un giro completo all'impastatrice, il risultato sarebbe o dovrebb'essere lo stesso, no?
- Cosa si intende per bassa velocità? 45-50 giri al minuto?


Io con la mia Forcellina ci metto più o meno 15-18 minuti ad amalgamare gli ingredienti
(aggiungo la farina a pioggia e molto lentamente)
e poi impasto per 15 minuti (70 giri al minuto x 15 minuti= 1050 battute)

Impasto troppo?

[sub]

Ciao Pere,

Il Disciplinare è sbagliata !

si dovrebbe impastare il meno possibile (lungo impastare ossidare l'impasto, perde sapore)

lungo impasto è buono con lento impastatrice pro a forcella pro e braccia tuffanti

Omid impasto 5-6 minuto con il suo santo 65% idratazione, 10 minuto con 68% idratazione (Caputo pizzeria)

[Pere153]

Forse sì, sub, ma con un tempo di impastamento così breve... mi sa che la maglia non riesce formarsi bene e se poi se facciamo una impasto a 20-24 ore la tenuta della maglia non sarà come dovrebbe.


Puoi darmi il link del metdo di impastamento con la Santos18 di Omid?

Comunque c'è qualcosa che non mi torna, ho visto l'impasto di Omid, riesce a formare una buona maglia, ma con un tempo così breve...


PS: Omid, abita negli Stati Uniti, allora la sua Santos 18 fa 84 giri al minuto, in Europa ne fa 70 giri.

[sub]

Ho letto non c'è bisogno di impastare troppo con una puntata lunga, la rete di glutine formare se stesso con il resto, avete solo a impastare per raggiungere il punto di pasta con una maturazione corta.

mi dispiace no, si deve cercare il suo filo,

[Napoli72]

Ho letto non c'è bisogno di impastare troppo con una puntata lunga, la rete di glutine formare se stesso con il resto, avete solo a impastare per raggiungere il punto di pasta con una maturazione corta.

mi dispiace no, si deve cercare il suo filo,

Quoto

[Pere153]

@Napoli; Quanto tempo impasti?

[sub]

Puoi darmi il link del metdo di impastamento con la Santos18 di Omid?

guarda qui: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!

quoto Omid:

Toward the end of mechanized mixing, which took 5 minutes and 12 seconds, I added 1 fistful of extra flour to adjust the dough consistency. In case you wonder why it took only 5 minutes and 12 seconds for my dough to develop during mixing, it is because dough formation and development happen very rapidly in the Santos mixer because of the fast speed of the fork, which quickly oxygenates the dough. Santos has only one fork speed, 84 RPM. I mentioned this because I believe the way my dough was developed during mixing played a significant role in the subsequent stages of dough development during the next 10 + 5 hours of fermentation. No stretch-and-folds were performed. Have a great weekend!

Dear Vincenzo, it was about a year ago when my friend (an electronic engineer who lives in Russia now) helped me to reduce the RPM of my Santos motor without any modifications to the mixer. Unfortunately, I do not remember the details of how he accomplished this. Basically, he used an electronic module that, if I remember correctly, would send electric pulses to the Santos motor at longer intervals (without reducing the 60Hz frequency) in order to emulate 30Hz or lower frequencies, hence reducing the RPM of the motor by half or lower. I will send him an email to provide me with details. I will inform you.

You may experience it differently, but according to my experience, Santos fork mixer does not function well at very low fork speeds. Please, take a look at the second video in Reply #2122 above, and notice that the dough batch (which is about 5 kilos or more) is hardly getting kneaded at fork speed of 21 RPM—simply because the dough is not massive/heavy enough to promptly disengage itself from the wall of the mixer bowl and fall down to reengage with the fork. The smaller the dough batch, the worse this problem becomes. How big of a dough batch do you usually make? Again, because of its physical limitations, Santos can never function like a Pietroberto or Mecnosud fork mixer, if that is what you have in mind.

Please, check out the video below (which features a Pietroberto fork mixer, model La Vittoria 200, of much higher dough capacity than Santos), and compare its kneading action with the second Santos video above. Good night!

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Dear Sub, yes, I think the flour was not stored under proper conditions. The expiration date printed on the bag is Nov. 18, 2013.

In your above-referenced post, you wrote, "I do not understand how you can knead the dough so little with your Santos. I know with long fermentation you should knead as little as possible but on the youtube videos I see often 20 minutes of kneading with fork mixer. Can you please enlighten me?"

Santos fork mixer handles dough differently than professional fork mixers such as those manufactured by Pietroberto or Mecnosud, which is the one used by Mr. Roberto Caporuscio in the video. Since the dough capacity of Santos is much lower and its fork speed way faster than a professional fork mixer, it intensifies the process of dough mixing. As a result, dough development happens much faster.

The dough capacity of Santos is 5 kilos. (The second dough batch that I prepared yesterday, in Reply #2117 above, weighed 2.5 kilos.) In contrast, the dough capacity of Roberto's Mecnosud is 60 kilos. (The dough batch in the Kesté video probably weighed over 40 kilos.) In addition, the fork speed of Santos is 84 RPM (revolutions per minute) while the fork speed of Roberto's Mecnosud is about 30 RPM. So, I believe the inverse relation between the "dough capacities" and "fork speeds" of the aforementioned mixers accounts for the amount of time needed by each mixer to develop a dough batch.

Santo fork mixer is an interesting mixer. I did not think about it this way at all in the beginning. In fact, I used to execrate it as a useless piece of junk. However, once I took the time and diligence to understand how it works, and accordingly learned how to effectively manipulate it, I began liking the mixer. It is not an easy, autopilot type of mixer; nonetheless, it can prove to be a very instrumental tool for home-bakers who work with highly hydrated doughs. So far, I have gone all the way up to 110% of hydration, without any problems, in making certain types of bread doughs with Santos. The mixer functions well with high-hydrated doughs, but not as good with hydrations under 60%, in my opinion.

By the way, reducing its fork speed to 40 RPM or below—which I finally managed to do with the help of a friend—will not make Santos a better mixer for the purpose of making Neapolitan dough. Why? Because the dough capacity—hence, dough weight—is so low that no effective mixing and kneading get done; the dough sticks to the walls of the bowl and stays there (because of its relatively light weight) rather than falling down on the fork and bottom of the bowl. I hope this makes sense.

The first video below, demonstrates a Santos mixer, which is mine, working at 84 RPM. The second video, shows a Santos, which belongs to a member of this forum, at work at 21 RPM. The former is kneading a dough (about 3 kilos) that is higher in hydration than the latter (about 5 kilos or more). Good day!

Omid

Obviously, one of the limitations that I am facing in this enterprise is my Santos fork mixer. It is not as gentle as Da Michele's fork mixer; it develops the dough much quicker during mixing. In addition, my Santos is of much lower capacity, which makes a substantial difference (less dough weight-pressure during mixing). I have found certain ways around these problems, but they can only alleviate them up to a point. Good day!

Santos is not an autopilot type of mixer. One needs to proactively intervene in its operations during mixing and kneading. As a general rule, less manual intervention is needed with larger dough batch and higher hydration. Conversely, more interference is needed as the dough hydration and batch size are decreased. Since the dough capacity of Santos is low in relation to professional fork mixers, the dough is not massive or heavy enough to collapse back on itself after being lifted by the speedy fork. As a result, the dough keeps attaching itself against the walls of the mixer, not getting kneaded properly. In my experience, more dough hydration (for example, 61% or higher if using Caputo Pizzeria '00' flour), in conjunction with using at least 1000 grams or more flour (the more, the better), can alleviate this problem to a degree. A more voluminous and high-hydration dough is heavier, more flexible, and less stiff; therefore, it is more likely to synchronize itself with the mixer's pulse and rhythm, resulting in a better kneaded and more uniform dough. Fortunately, it is possible to make good dough with Santos, which takes plenty of practice and attentiveness in order to gain the needed skills. The mixer definitely has some great qualities and features that make it more desirable to me than my Kitchen Aid Professional 620.

Considering the above, I believe that 20 minutes of mixing is too excessive and intensive for the purpose of making Neapolitan dough with Santos. My presumption is that, after 20 minutes of kneading your 65% hydration Caputo Pizzeria dough, the gluten film becomes too thin and extensive (vulnerable to tearing), later on bringing about a dough maturation that, according to professor Raymond Calvel, is "artificial".

[Napoli72]

@Napoli; Quanto tempo impasti?

Difficile dirlo in anticipo...ma l'autolisi e gli stop mi aiutano a ridurre i tempi in modo considerevole (salvo idratazioni assurde intendo)

[Pere153]

@Sub e @Napoli grazie a tutti e due

Considering the above, I believe that 20 minutes of mixing is too excessive and intensive for the purpose
of making Neapolitan dough with Santos. My presumption is that, after 20 minutes of kneading your 65% hydration
Caputo Pizzeria dough, the gluten film becomes too thin and extensive (vulnerable to tearing)

La prossima volta provero ad impastare meno...

[Napoli72]

@Sub e @Napoli grazie a tutti e due

Grazie a te Pere